Cam lobes damaged!

[Clogan]

Rider posted on another forum of scarred cam lobes found during 18,000 mile valve check. Anybody here see any damage/defects when doing valve check?

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[akarmire]

On a GT?

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[Clogan]

On a GT?

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Yup, a GT, with regular oil and filter changes using Motorex. It's on the Advrider thread.

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[DaveNZ]

Heard nothing down our way, i converse often with the guys who do my servicing, and they have yet had to alter the valve clearances on the 1290Rs that have passed 30,000Kms. Every now and then there will be an engine that will have a problem. Put good oil in and change half way between services, 15,000kms is too larger gap between oil changes. I do oil and filter every 7500Kms, the oil still looks like new. I used Motul V300 once in my bike, but the guys said not to, as is a short life racing oil, ok for 3000kms no more. They recommended using motul 7100 10/60 and change at 7500.

[t-bills]

Here are the cams in question:



For the purpose of internet squabbles, the oil and filters were changed at 620 miles, 7500 miles, and 10,000 miles. I used Motorex 4T 10W50 oil and K&N filters. The bike now has 17,900 miles on it.

KTM responded that the cams look fine to them and they won't replace them. KTM doesn't stand behind their product.

Edit: After a discussion with the VP of KTM NA, the decision has been reversed. KTM is going to replace the cams and followers.

[Aussie Dave]

Crikey ....... that's considered as ok......... glad they had a rethink!

I'm in the "change oil at half recommended interval" camp like DaveNZ. (I use 15w50 in V2's, 10w50 in my 4cyl CBR1100xx).

Hope I don't see cam lobes like those when I get to 30,000kms.

[t-bills]

I picked the bike up today. KTM replaced all 4 cams and the finger followers. They ended up flying in a race team mechanic to perform the work instead of having the dealership do it. Rather bizarre.

[DaveNZ]

I picked the bike up today. KTM replaced all 4 cams and the finger followers. They ended up flying in a race team mechanic to perform the work instead of having the dealership do it. Rather bizarre.

Thats great service, no doubt they will want to examine those cams to see whats behind the premature wear, and whether its a manufacturing problem, or oil related. My mechanic puts 10/60 motul in mine, thats what he recommends.

[MarkLH69]

I picked the bike up today. KTM replaced all 4 cams and the finger followers. They ended up flying in a race team mechanic to perform the work instead of having the dealership do it. Rather bizarre.

Thats a bit of a turnaround .. sounds like they don't trust the dealership mechanics very much !

[DaveNZ]

^^ Id say more the factory wants to look at these cams, the 1290 engine is in at least 3 KTM models, and have proved very durable, and racking up high milage. Possibly this being the first cam wear problem they will want to know why. Oil related? or a manufacturing problem and may be a one off. I think its fantastic of the company to put this much interest in there engines and not just sending out cam replacements. Try googling Guzzi 4 valve cam failures, those things are failing in huge numbers, and all the company does is replace the cams and flat tappets with new cams and roller tappets, and thats only with proof of servicing and and proof of cam damage, Parts only supplied not labour, and if these tappets fail, the engine can get irreparable damage. Good on KTM for taking this seriously.

[kevxtx]

A real good out come.

[Aussie Dave]

So I got interested in oils and downloaded some tech specs...... I'm not an oil specialist....... but at least I could compare KTM's Motorex 4T ( Formula 15w50 semi syn and Top Speed 10w40/15w50 full syn) to the Motul 5100 4T 10w50 I have used for over 12 years in my Honda (with no valve wear/oil usage issues - 6000km changes)....... and I'm happy the specs are similar/better

I was somewhat concerned using Motorex as it was new to me.... unlike the much used and thus trusted Motul 5100..... so now I feel more confident in my choice of oil and servicing intentions.

I wouldn't run any of these oils for the factory specified 15,000kms (not even 100% full syn spec) because they get mashed by the gear box etc......so I'm sticking to 5000kms for Formula 4T 15w50 semi syn, and, when I change to Top Speed 4T 15w50 full syn at the 15,000km dealer service, I'll do 7500km oil changes.....

I've seen some gripes about the pink M7100 10w60 stuff...... but it should be good for 7500km - if you can stand the perfume....... it really is very pink.... Main thing is they all have Jasco MA or MA2 - I use 15w50 to suit my local conditions (fuggin hot in summer..but lovely in winter - no snow ... ).

Tried and tried to attach those technical sheets but they just won't load to the forum page..... (but if you're keen..... google Motul/Motorex and have a read).....

Cheers all.....

[Aussie Dave]

With further thought..... I'm starting to think those using "Cross Power" for street use had better change it every 2-3000kms......

I read comments in occasional threads, that seem to suggest that oils with high Ester content are better than ordinary full syn or semi syn oils......

Given these guys have had excessive wear issues using these ultra modern oils, I'm thinking that these double Esther content oil formulations are not suited to ordinary road/street use. It may be that they have no long life additives - which are not required by race teams as they just don't do more than 1000kms a year no matter how often they visit the track..... but a road rider will do 4k-24k kms a year, seasons depending.

Like Motul 300V...... totally unsuitable for road blasters (unless they change it every 2000kms), I'm suspecting Cross Power is it's Motorex equivalent...... also designed for track use only.

I think most of us only ever need Top Speed 4T full syn (or Formula 4T semi syn) for our daily use. The dealerships will encourage you to use more expensive/fancier oils but unless you fit the intended use you can damage your motor.

I've used semi syn (eg Motul 5100) for decades with minimal engine wear (CBR1100XX 130,000kms zero oil consumption + motor still 'feels' new)..... so that's a benchmark..... others ride more aggressively, so the next tier in oils may be required (Motul 7100 or Top Speed 4T)...... but few would ever need the double Ester 300V/Cross Power unless they were track enthusiasts with very low annual kms. (the double esthers are great if you need low viscosity for cold temp conditions...).

Naturally, it is wise to change the oil more frequently than the marketing boys state in the owners handbook (Honda stated 12k kms - I do 6k km changes with M5100..... and on my SDGT I do 5k km changes with Mx 4T semi syn.... though I would happily do 7.5k km changes with Top Speed FS.... KTM's 15,000kms is absurd).

Gearboxes are merciless oil killers on motorcycles ( think of all the new BMW owners who haven't adjusted to the new design R1200/1250 shared engine & gearbox oils.. .)..... cars can go 10-15k kms because their engine and gearbox oils are separate . Fleet type trucks & taxis run 24/7 so they get much longer oil intervals than a stop-start private car/bike due less condensation/contamination & cold start up.

Food for thought eh?....... Marketing/advertising..... designed to sell more product..... buyer beware

Cheers all.

[Aussie Dave]

Yep, just read an article in a respected local bike mag....... fancy "racing" formula's are not suitable for long distance or high annual mileage road use...... it also advised that the SAE rating (eg 10w50 or 10w60 etc) tends to degrade quicker for oils with a greater difference in the rating eg a 5w70 rated oil will degrade faster than a 15w40 blend...... ending up as 5w watery oil after the gearbox & heat & contaminants degrade the polymers.

So it's not rocket science...... there is no miracle high tech oil that will cope with a 15,000km stint in a bike engine that revs like there's no tomorrow, lubes all those teeth in a gearbox, cools the underside of the pistons and clutch plates.... also attracting moisture due to exposure to the elements (unlike a covered car engine compartment).

Racing formula oils are designed solely for low friction for racing purposes and have zero long life additives. Race bikes don't do more than 1000km in a season - compared to a street bike's 5000-25000km pa.

Don't be fooled by the marketing..... dealers and oil exec's think we are all Marquez maniac's who only ride once a month at track day's....... ...... oh yeah..... wasn't the Qatar MGP a great season opener

[Aussie Dave]

In the back of my mind ( .... scary place eh ) I've been perplexed with this issue....... so on re-reading that cam lobe story, the story presented was:-

Oil at 620ml(1000km) - Motorex 4T 10w50 (I assume that's Top Speed FS, not Formula 4T semi synth).
Oil at 7500mls(12,000kms)
Oil at 17,500mls(28,000kms)
Photo at 17900mls (28640kms)

KTM specify 9375mls/15,000kms between services to qualify for Euro 4 accreditation.

So from the info given by the owner, the oil was in for too long - especially the 3rd change 10k mls/16k kms which is over KTM's specified limit of 9375mls/15k kms.

In any case, the oils should have been changed every 7500kms/5000mls out of common sense (don't believe marketing spiel). So KTM would have known this, and initially resisted authorizing warranty repairs, then they must have decided that even though the owner had exceeded specified limits, they were also culpable because they were recommending excessive service intervals..... and they wouldn't want the bad publicity anyway.

So fear not those who do the sensible thing and change oil at half specified intervals - your engine will not suffer this wear....... the 4T 10w50 was effectively dirty/contaminated 10w oil at 7500mls because the 50w polymers had degraded from gearbox and heat long ago. That should have been 'felt' by the rider as watery oil/weak oil pressure/rattly engine.

Ps Choosing to use a 'better' oil won't work either..... better off (and cheaper) to just use a good road based oil and change more often than the book specifies...... Aussies can buy the 'Motorcycle Trader' magazine for March and read Spannerman's article on oils...... very informative especially in this age of marketing BS.