New Superduke GT owner experiences.

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Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by DucBMW » Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:24 pm

OldGit60 wrote:Hi Guys,
First post on this site.
I have 1290 gt and would like to hear other owner/riders opinions on a couple of issues I have.

First off, wind blast. [...] Has anyone found a good aftermarket screen?

Quickshift. I've turned mine off as I can change quicker and smoother without it. It only seems to work smooth(ish) on full throttle which is not always desirable on normal roads. Anybody else agree?

Suspension. Semi active seems to default to rock hard with little re-bound damping on the rear, [...]

Those issues apart the bike is great - especially the way the engine just pulls!
Some I recognize, yes.

First, introductions: I am Albert, just turned 46, 1.85m/70 kg, doing 35000 km on average yearly, using all sorts of motorcycles (supersports and sporty grand tourers mainly, but also enduro and all-road). I took delivery of my SDGT in April this year. Meanwhile, travelled nearly 15000 km with the bike, despite having to hand it in twice, for a variety of works to be done.

For amusement, bear with me:
  • - Delivery of optional parts (hard cases, nav-mount, ergo seats) took about a month and a half.
  • - Side stand spur broke of at the first service, in April, and has only recently been replaced after it nearly came of the bike all together due to loosing one of the bolts that mounts it to the engine (vibrations).
  • - Frame was replaced in June (7600 km) due to a bracket holding the modulator for the butterfly valve having been torn due to vibrations. Dealership suspected the exhaust or engine to cause the vibrations, but already then I suggested to look into the suspension, as road compliance was pretty poor sometimes.
  • - Master brake assembly (front) replaced due to it coming of the handlebar as a result of pulling the lever somewhat firmly while braking, which caused one of the bolts holding it in position to snap of.
  • - Replaced the righthand instrumentcluster (a.o. cruise control), as this item is supposed to keep the throttle in position, and both could turn freely around the handlebar.
After taking delivery again, July, it was of to the Alps for holidays. That basically meant some weeks of being thrown out of the saddle whenever even the slightest bump or pothole was in sight. Obviously I had already noticed earlier that the SDGT sometimes had some difficulty holding a line when cornering - mostly there was a tendency to run wide - but creative use of throttle and lean angle made compensating for this quite easy. After all, the SDGT is agile, to the point where it really becomes addictive, wow! The comfort, however, was terrible, so that after a couple of days it was no longer bearable to ride in excess of 2 hours in one go. FYI, I am quite used to be in the saddle for 12 hours a day, with ease.

So we returned home some days earlier. I invited the dealership to come and get the bike, and keep it for as long as KTM would need to sort out their issues. Despite the magnificant pull of the engine, I was fed up with it: to secure mobility I purchased a brand new FJR, my sixth I believe, but luckily at a reasonable discount this time. Admittedly, it is a boring lump of steel, but at least it runs, reliably, and it corners properly, also fast if determined.

Anyway, further repairs and mods took place in September and October. This took about 5-6 weeks, after which the bike was returned. What they did:
  • - Extensive testing, and replacing various parts of the engine electronics, in an attempt to solve the frequent stalling that occurred (mostly) after engine braking at higher altitudes.
  • - Reassembling the headlight/fairing/etc., as all this pointed to the left after the frame was replaced.
  • - Reassembling the front forks, which alegedly had not been manufactured correctly (so could never have worked properly)
  • - Reducing the rear spring rate, although not clear how.
  • - Replacing the front brake discs due to deformation.
  • - Replacing handlebar grips, as these had worn out already by 6000 km.
  • - Replacing various black anodized parts, as these started to turn into some purple-ish type of sensation.
  • - Replacing sidepannels and mirrors, for no obvious reason, but free of charge so fine.
  • - 15000 km service, free of charge, also fine, and a nice gesture.
Yet to do:
  • - Inspect (and repair or replace) hard cases, as already since they were mounted in June they stopped keeping rain out
  • - Replace the righthand instrumentcluster, agian, for the same reason as described above (probably damaged due to wrong assembly as part of the second badge of repairs).
  • - Next year, first trip through the Alps should confirm (or not) if engine stalling has been resolved. If not, even though I love the bike for its pull and agility, I'm afraid this KTM will not be a keeper...
Now, in terms of the work done at suspension and damping, I summarized what I picked up from the dealership. KTM so far refused to detail what they did exactly. So yes, I recognize your complaint about suspension and damping, and although I do not exactly know what has been done, it seems as if KTM is very capable of successfully addressing this issue. This is because after its second return, the bike handles significantly better in terms of road compliance, and comfort has definately improved: it is still a firm ride, but at least I can now keep my position in the saddle.

I also recognize that - even despite the improvements on my SDGT - the 1050 Adventure is the better bike of the two, at least in terms of comfort, handling and cornering. I guess this is obvious, because the Adventure is probably targeting a different audience.

The buffeting you mention makes me suspect your helmet. How long have you had it and does it (still) fit properly? In my opinion, the windscreen on the SDGT does not do a whole lot, but in lowest position there is a clean flow of air around the helmet. What annoyed me in the beginning - used to it now - is that the narrow shape of the windshield can cause buffeting at the shoulders. This is not a big deal, but the contrast just feels awquard.

Quickshifter is hopeless indeed, except under full acceleration and > 7000 rpm, when it still responds slightly delayed, but nevertheless a convenient option sometimes. You can help it by manipulating the throttle a little bit, but even then it takes "ages" before it changes gear.

Hope this helps.
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Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by JDS1290SDr » Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:18 pm

Interesting read Mr DucBMW. Welcome to the forum.
Not being a GT owner I cant give any feed back on the GT. But owning its little older brother I can understand some of this.
1050 handles better then the GT? I may find that hard to believe. I would believe that it is more comfortable. I think the ADventure has more suspension travel. But those skinny tires & a 19" front tell me that if pushing both bikes hard the GT should have better traction, if set-up properly. I will believe that the 1050 tips in easier.
Sucks that you had so many issues with your GT. Id be pissed at a few of them. Stand stand bolt. No big deal. Cracked frame. That is a BIG deal. The other issues I would have(tried) to resolved myself.
Last edited by JDS1290SDr on Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by DucBMW » Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:28 pm

What I meant by the better handling of the 1050 Adventure, is that it keeps its line better when cornering, at least in comparison with the SDGT as it was delivered to me. Obviously the two bikes are incomparable for the rest.

As these SDGT's do not exactly come for free, it did not occur to me to start repairing or modding stuff. Set aside that I lack the time to do that - the bikes that I buy must run - as a paying customer I expect that a bike functions properly, reliably and safely. If, for instance, parts break of for no obvious reason, or none of the wheels are capable of maintaining contact with road surface most of the time, then I expect dealership and/or manufacturer to solve that. That's what warranty is for, I believe. This is the first bike, In my over 30 years experience, that made me visit the dealership 2-3 times a month...

Normally, I buy a new bike once every 2 years, and the thing will only see the inside of the workshop for regular maintenance and tires. That means - doing 30-40k km on two bikes - that I normally visit the dealership 4 maybe 6 times a year, not 15... ;)
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Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by JDS1290SDr » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:16 pm

^ Ill agree 100% with that. These arnt cheap by any means. Having it sit at a dealer to fix issues like those wouldn't give me that warm & fuzzy feeling I would want.
Hopefully yours is one of the only ones with that extent of issues.
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Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by Eddie » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:02 pm

DucBMW wrote: Quickshifter is hopeless indeed, except under full acceleration and > 7000 rpm, when it still responds slightly delayed, but nevertheless a convenient option sometimes. You can help it by manipulating the throttle a little bit, but even then it takes "ages" before it changes gear.
This is very odd.

There's obviously a lot of variation in the experience of the quickshifter, and I've never used any others so I don't have anything to compare it against, but mine seems smooth and quick at any revs or throttle position. (Admittedly, first to second has a big clunk, so I tend to clutch that.) I seem to remember it being not so smooth when I first got the bike, but once the gearbox loosened up a bit, the QS got smoother too, and now I can't imagine how it would be any better.

Any ideas what makes the difference?

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Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by DucBMW » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:18 pm

Eddie wrote:
DucBMW wrote: Quickshifter is hopeless indeed, except under full acceleration and > 7000 rpm, when it still responds slightly delayed, but nevertheless a convenient option sometimes. You can help it by manipulating the throttle a little bit, but even then it takes "ages" before it changes gear.
This is very odd.

There's obviously a lot of variation in the experience of the quickshifter, and I've never used any others so I don't have anything to compare it against, but mine seems smooth and quick at any revs or throttle position. (Admittedly, first to second has a big clunk, so I tend to clutch that.) I seem to remember it being not so smooth when I first got the bike, but once the gearbox loosened up a bit, the QS got smoother too, and now I can't imagine how it would be any better.

Any ideas what makes the difference?
Probably the fact that this is a big twin.

Both my BMW (for track use) and Triumph have quickshifters, and except for there being another gear you will not notice that you switched gear. But these are 4 resp. 3 cilinder engines that generally run smoother and rev much higher. I can imagine that tuning the quickshifter at the KTM to similar parameters (to make it faster) could do serious damage to a.o. the gearbox. So its tuning is probably a precaution.

Anyway, I think quickshifters can be convenient, and can live with the one on the SDGT: don't need it when cruising, and when riding sportier I can choose to apply it or not, which is fine.
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Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by Eddie » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:48 pm

DucBMW wrote:
Eddie wrote: Any ideas what makes the difference?
Probably the fact that this is a big twin.
Well, yes, but I meant that the quickshifter on my SDGT seeming like it's pretty close to perfect, whereas others say their SDGT is basic and agricultural.

Why the difference in owner's impressions of what should be identical bikes?

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Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by MR C » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:52 pm

How can one bike have so many problems ! Surely all bikes would have the same issues ?

Mine doesn't have any of these issues apart from I think the quickshifter delay is too long and my dealer even said the same but it's still fun especially when you pin the throttle and just snick snick up the box, my suspension is lush my panniers do not leak water and the bike rocks big time.

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Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by DucBMW » Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:01 pm

Eddie wrote:
DucBMW wrote:
Eddie wrote: Any ideas what makes the difference?
Probably the fact that this is a big twin.
Well, yes, but I meant that the quickshifter on my SDGT seeming like it's pretty close to perfect, whereas others say their SDGT is basic and agricultural.

Why the difference in owner's impressions of what should be identical bikes?
Expectations, I would hope. Different owners might have different expectations, be it based on experience or not. Alternatively, there are significant variances in built quality. This I cannot judge, but when do you expect to have your frame and some other bits replaced? :lol:
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Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by DucBMW » Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:11 pm

MR C wrote:How can one bike have so many problems ! Surely all bikes would have the same issues ?

Mine doesn't have any of these issues apart from I think the quickshifter delay is too long and my dealer even said the same but it's still fun especially when you pin the throttle and just snick snick up the box, my suspension is lush my panniers do not leak water and the bike rocks big time.
That's exactly what I am curious about. What's the mileage on your bike?

Personally, I think most of the issues with my bike could qualify as bad luck: new model, small manufacturer... not good, but can happen. However, what I did learn, meanwhile, is that the replaced frame was different from both older and newer bikes (registration) in terms of the material used for the bracket that was torn (my bike: some sort of alloy mixture, all others that I have seen: just metal, identical to what I received after replacement). Could that mean that I was delivered some sort of pre-series model?
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Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by MR C » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:10 am

DucBMW wrote:
MR C wrote: That's exactly what I am curious about. What's the mileage on your ?
Just over 5000 miles or 8046 km and more i put on it the better it gets especially the suspension, there's no vibs, it starts on the button first time every time and really is a great bike.

I have experienced similar issue tho, i brought a brand new GS WC in 2013 the first of the new water cooled model and it needed a new frame because bm had welded the steering stops in the wrong place and it had various other issues like the clutched dragged the rear subframe was out of tolerance so the panniers would not fit properly i rejected the bike and BMW replaced it with a 2014 model and after 2000 miles it also needed a new engine due to a porous crank case, i rejected and asked for a full refund, this they honoured and gave me a goodwill voucher for my troubles of £2000 that I used against buying an XR.

I would have rejected your bike and asked for a brand new one or my money back, having them fit a new frame because the tab snapping off would not be acceptable ! you brought a brand new factory built bike and not a workshop built one .

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Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by OldGit60 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:29 pm

DucBMW,

Thanks for that reply, it seems we have experienced some similar problems, which is interesting as KTM inferred I was the only person that was having issues. They have suggested that should ride in sport mode- allowing more responsive turn in as forks are allowed to dive. Rather defeats the object of having three modes and 'intelligent' suspension I would say!
I notice you have had problems staying in the seat as well, I found it worse in 'comfort' mode, it seems the spring is so hard that the only way to 'soften' it is to remove all damping and you are, basically, on a pogo stick. I hit one undulation (hardly noticeable on the 1190), the suspension compressed and rebounded rapidly enough to throw me out of the seat and hurting my back when I came back down again.
With your permission I'll reference your reply, they have in fairness offered to check the bike over and it might be the case that mine was put together wrong as well. The test bike I rode was much better.
I've turned the QS off completely now as I can change quicker and smoother without it!
It seems to me that this is potentially a great bike that is being let down by being over complex and a few quality issues. I hope KTM get it sorted soon!
With regard to the screen, I notice Puig are releasing a taller screen which I hope will help, my helmet is AGV and only 12months old and gave me no problems at license losing speeds on the 1190, so I'm putting it down to the wind blast but will try other helmets to see if that helps.

JDS1290Dr,

When it comes to handling, my 1190 Adventure was far nicer, smoother, more compliant and could take pretty much anything in it's stride. It turned in just fine and held it's line which, to my mind at least, is what handling is all about rather that ultimate grip and roadholding.

Thanks gents for your comments and observations, the more that contributors add to these forums the better. Then hopefully KTM, and other manufactures, will take note. The customer is always right! (even if he is a pain in the arse!!)

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Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by JDS1290SDr » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:46 pm

JDS1290Dr,

When it comes to handling, my 1190 Adventure was far nicer, smoother, more compliant and could take pretty much anything in it's stride. It turned in just fine and held it's line which, to my mind at least, is what handling is all about rather that ultimate grip and roadholding.

Thanks gents for your comments and observations, the more that contributors add to these forums the better. Then hopefully KTM, and other manufactures, will take note. The customer is always right! (even if he is a pain in the arse!!)[/quote]

I believe that the 1190 FELT better. But I believe that a GT with sorted out suspension would out handle a 1190 Adv. That's not knocking the 1190. Its just tire related.
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Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by JDS1290SDr » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:47 pm

JDS1290Dr,

When it comes to handling, my 1190 Adventure was far nicer, smoother, more compliant and could take pretty much anything in it's stride. It turned in just fine and held it's line which, to my mind at least, is what handling is all about rather that ultimate grip and roadholding.

Thanks gents for your comments and observations, the more that contributors add to these forums the better. Then hopefully KTM, and other manufactures, will take note. The customer is always right! (even if he is a pain in the arse!!)[/quote]

I believe that the 1190 FELT better. But I believe that a GT with sorted out suspension would out handle a 1190 Adv. That's not knocking the 1190. Its just tire related.
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Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by JDS1290SDr » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:47 pm

JDS1290Dr,

When it comes to handling, my 1190 Adventure was far nicer, smoother, more compliant and could take pretty much anything in it's stride. It turned in just fine and held it's line which, to my mind at least, is what handling is all about rather that ultimate grip and roadholding.

Thanks gents for your comments and observations, the more that contributors add to these forums the better. Then hopefully KTM, and other manufactures, will take note. The customer is always right! (even if he is a pain in the arse!!)[/quote]

I believe that the 1190 FELT better. But I believe that a GT with sorted out suspension would out handle a 1190 Adv. That's not knocking the 1190. Its just tire related.
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Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by OldGit60 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:09 pm

JDS1290SDr wrote:JDS1290Dr,

When it comes to handling, my 1190 Adventure was far nicer, smoother, more compliant and could take pretty much anything in it's stride. It turned in just fine and held it's line which, to my mind at least, is what handling is all about rather that ultimate grip and roadholding.

Thanks gents for your comments and observations, the more that contributors add to these forums the better. Then hopefully KTM, and other manufactures, will take note. The customer is always right! (even if he is a pain in the arse!!)
I believe that the 1190 FELT better. But I believe that a GT with sorted out suspension would out handle a 1190 Adv. That's not knocking the 1190. Its just tire related.[/quote]

I agree, the GT should be the better bike on normal roads - think it might struggle off road tho! In fact I hope it will eventually, it cost enough! What I mean by the term 'Handling' is not necessarily about ultimate grip, it's about how it delivers and feels. An old car on basic suspension and cross ply tyres can 'handle' better than a supercar even though it'll lack speed and ultimate roadholding, and will disappear through a hedge backwards at much sooner. Before that it will, indeed like the 1190, feel better and involve the driver giving better feedback and control. Having said that there are a few red faced sport bike riders that are familiar with the back end of the 1190!!

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Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by DucBMW » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:05 pm

OldGit60 wrote:DucBMW,

With your permission I'll reference your reply, they have in fairness offered to check the bike over and it might be the case that mine was put together wrong as well.
I have no problem with you pointing your dealer at my experiences, but it might be more effective to just direct them to the NL distributor (who conveniently houses in or next to the WP factory). This is provided that it is made clear that I do not mean to be overly negative: in fact, I am very happy with the support that was given. Obviously, it is ridiculous imho that a brand new bike has issues in the first place, but this can happen with new models (BMW is the perfect example of that in recent years). The way both dealership and the KTM distributor responded was quite OK: they must have easily spend at least half a SDGT on repairs and doing stuff.

Just to confirm, my issues with the SDGT's suspension were:

- In the rear there was virtually no wheel travel in sport- and street-mode, and indeed an interesting pogo stick sensation when set to comfort. Basically the bike would just bump of the ground when hitting bumps. I was told that the spring rate has been reduced, which would cause the bike to sit lower at the rear, which in turn could cause the shock to function more effectively. I would normally expect that this would also require adjustments to compression and rebound damping, but that I could not get confirmed yet.
- At the front, the forks were just always too late, so in practice would only kind of work when hitting really deep potholes. This was also noticable under emergency braking: the forks would compress with a delay, almost as if there was significant stick slip, even in sport mode. The latter has improved somewhat after the reassembly, but still does not feel as intuitive as e.g. conventional forks.
- Concerning the anti-dive sensation: this indeed makes the bike sit relatively high at the front, causing it to understeer most of the time. Setting it to sport mode eliminates the anti-dive, which indeed makes it turn in much sharper. This is why I always used sport-mode to begin with.

Admittedly, I have not been riding the SDGT anywhere near its limits since it was last returned, due to a combination of wheather conditions, lack of time and the FJR doing the work right now. But I could clearly notice more wheel travel + better road compliance at the rear. Another improvement I did notice: the bike used to have a tendency to wobble a little bit at speeds in excess of say 130 kph, which tendency seems to have disappeared.
JDS1290SDr wrote:
I believe that the 1190 FELT better. But I believe that a GT with sorted out suspension would out handle a 1190 Adv. That's not knocking the 1190. Its just tire related.
True, that's what I would expect too. And I can also confirm that de SDGT is not any good off-road. In fact, from experience I can tell that even the FJR is a better off-roader: the SDGT's stylish front spoiler removes quite a bit of usefull ground clearance, however, it is not a very expensive part... :lol:
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Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by vet57air » Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:23 am

Confused. The GT is a Sport Tourer not a adventure bike? Yes I know the BMW 1000XR is listed as a adventure bike and both it and the Multi are competition for the GT but they are made to be sporty on paved roads?

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Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by JDS1290SDr » Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:25 am

^ The Multi is for sure. As far as that goes the only time I would take mine off road was if I had to take a piss. I would never take that bike off road. Why the normal Multi is consider a Adventure bike is ridiculous.
The extra length in suspension makes it a plusher ride when set right. And it is a well behaved sport bike when adjusted for faster curvy riding.
Ducati now has another version of the Multi that is geared more towards the Adv style of riding. The normal Multi would be competition for the GT. Just a less powerful version of it.
It sounds to me like some of these GTs are way out of whack with the suspension settings?
Ill assume damping & preload are controlled by electronic actuators?
I answered my own question with a google search.

Semi-Active Suspension
WP’s latest semi-active suspension debuts outside of the 1290 Super Adventure, using many of the same technologies. In the fork, one leg houses a spring and a travel sensor—this leg is “dry” so the sensor will not be contaminated. The other leg uses an electro-valve cartridge that provides both static damping in both directions—meaning that this is independent of the electronic control—plus variable damping as fast as 10 milliseconds. This adjustment is via a small needle valve and works on both compression and rebound. Out back, the concept is similar, with an electro valve in the body of the shock as well as electrically adjustable spring preload.

To figure out damping rates, the WP system monitors suspension travel at both ends and also watches two accelerometers to determine what the chassis is doing independently of wheel movement. As an added bonus, the GT has a system that watches rear ride height and can automatically add spring preload to level the load. It only does this once at startup; it does not dynamically adjust spring preload as you ride.

Three suspension modes are available: Sport, Street, and Comfort. Street and Comfort use the “skyhook” concept to keep the chassis level regardless of the terrain. To do so, the system tends to reduce overall damping so the wheels are free to move. But when the system detects that the bump is big enough, or that you have clamped down on the brakes or asked for full power, it increases damping rates to help maintain an ideal chassis attitude. Overall, comfort uses lighter damping rates than Street.

Sport is different in that it doesn’t use anti-dive effect—basically adding compression damping at the fork and increasing rebound damping in the shock—to help make the bike feel more natural and to allow front-end dive for the purposes of weight transfer and front-end feel. Otherwise, Sport generally uses firmer baseline damping settings and biases the ride for handling and responsiveness over pure compliance.

These suspension modes are independent of the ride modes, so you can have any combination of suspension and ride-mode schemes.
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DaveNZ
675cc
675cc
Posts: 287
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:20 pm
Country: New Zealand
City: New plymouth
Year: 2016

Re: New Superduke GT owner experiences.

Post by DaveNZ » Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:50 am

The suspension on my GT is very good, but its no where near as good as the TTX suspension on my multistrada, I have the Ohlins SCU fitted on that bike also, making it semi active. Where i notice a big difference in quality, is when you hit a series of ripple bumps, multiple bumps in a row, the GT doesn't seem to be able to keep up and gets harsh towards the end of the bumps, where as the multi just soaks them up. I also noticed something similar to this when i swapped bikes with a mate, he had a newer multi with Sach sky hook suspension, he agreed that the Ohlins TTX was superior through a series of bumps. But over all I'm happy with the GTs suspension, for me i need to find a good setting that i can charge hard on this bike, and feel really confident that the suspension will work how i like and expect, it maybe Street mode with luggage, I'm in the process of trying different modes and settings. I haven't even checked my rider and bike sag yet, so work to do.
2016 1290GT-remus link and muffler, 2010 Black 1200 Multistrada full Termi system with mapping, 2005 SMR 640, full Titanium system, Mikuni flatside racing carb, 2 sets of wheels, 18 litre tank, and a nice soft seat.

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